Why The Transition Hasn't Made Australians Rich Yet | Deep Dive Australia 06: David Pocock

Michael Liebreich
I guess you're looking at me very quizzically.

David Pocock
Well, I'm just so sceptical of these AI companies. I mean, what is this race? It's to replace human labour, ultimately. And so what does that do for a country like Australia? We are so reliant on personal income tax in terms of our overall budget and tax take. So what, we're racing to then replace human labour? It's not like data centres are huge employers and so what is the end game here? Why are we rushing to do this and potentially compromising our climate goals, creating a whole bunch of emissions? Obviously, the easiest emissions to avoid are the ones you haven't created yet. And so we're about to potentially create all these additional emissions for what?

ML
Hello, I'm Michael Liebreich and this is Cleaning Up. We're recording this in Canberra in a studio in Parliament House. We're on the land of the Ngunnawal people and I'd like to pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging. Cleaning Up has a bit of a history of hosting former elite athletes now playing leadership roles in politics, in investing, in civic society, in business, and my guest today is in that tradition. He is a former member of the Australian national rugby team, the Wallabies, played in 83 tests. He is now a Senator in the Australian Capital Territory, and that is the area around Canberra. Please welcome Senator David Pocock to Cleaning Up. David, thank you very much for joining us here today on Cleaning Up.

DP
Thanks for having me, Michael.

ML
So, David, we always start with you describing you in your own words. I should say that you are one of, we have a little tradition or history now of elite athletes or ex-elite athletes playing leadership roles. So we had Aksel Lund Svindal, who was at one point the best skier in the world, and we had Alex Honnold, who I think is one of the world's best climbers free solo, and we also had Prince Albert of Monaco, who was a bobsledder in the Olympics. And I myself have a small Olympic career behind me. So with that as the preamble, explain who you are and what you're doing.

DP
Well, I'm currently an independent senator here in the Australian Capital Territory in the federal parliament. I've been a Senator for four years, certainly wasn't something that I ever thought I would be doing. I had played professional rugby for 15 or 16 years, had retired from that and was working in conservation, actually back in Zimbabwe where I grew up. Moved to Australia as a teenager and there was a community group here in Canberra that was set up to look for an independent candidate for the Senate. They thought that there was a chance that an independent could win a seat. And they said, hey, your name keeps coming up in conversations with Canberrans, the kind of person you want and people would say, someone like David Pocock. And initially I said, well, that's great to hear. Like, good luck with your project, love what you're doing, but not for me. And they kept coming back to me and it was probably over about six months thinking about it, I eventually got to the point where I thought, well, I'm really frustrated with politics, at some point you've got to put your money where your mouth is and be part of trying to change things and doing things differently.

ML
So, now, let's just double click on a couple of the things there. Actually, let me wind back to the rugby because just so you know who the audience is, 12% Australians, they'll all know who you are, what you did. Well, you're right, there may be some who are so checked out from rugby that they don't, you have to be checked out from rugby and politics, I think to be there. But yes, there'll be some, there'll be a small subsection. But the international audience, they won't I think, most of them. So, tell me about your rugby career.

DP
Sure. I grew up in Zimbabwe. And as a kid, my first memory of watching rugby was the 1995 Rugby World Cup, hosted by South Africa. South Africa go on to win it, this is just after the end of apartheid and it was sort of this unifying moment for the country. And I think it would have been eight at the time or something and it just captured my imagination.

ML
It was beautiful, that moment. And you had Nelson Mandela there, and it was just, and having just come out of apartheid, it was so significant I think, around the world. I remember that very clearly.

DP
It was huge. I mean, you could feel it in Zimbabwe. This was so significant. And remember, as a kid, that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to play at the Rugby World Cup and that's what I was going to do. So, my teenage years moved to Australia as a teenager after the land redistribution programme in Zimbabwe. We were farmers, lost our farm, managed to move here because mum was a teacher and just loved it. It was how, moving to Australia was how I made friends, it's how I started to fit in. And it was something that I was good at. And so, I went on to play professional rugby for, I think it was 15 seasons or so. I played in Perth, here in Canberra, and then for the Wallabies at three Rugby World Cups.

ML
Which years was that? Because there was one, the one that England won, I've got to refer to that because otherwise, you know, I'll be humiliated in rugby terms. I think it was 2003. Did you play in that one?

DP
No, I was later. So, 2011, 2015, 2019.

ML
Okay. And are there any real highlights that you want to share, particularly any England games that you remember? Because that's our biggest audience.

DP
I mean, so the 2015 Rugby World Cup was obviously in England. Beating them at Twickenham is always a very special thing as an Australian.

ML
Did that happen?

DP
It did happen. We went on to make the final and lost the final at Twickenham to New Zealand. And yeah, being part of something where you get all the way to the end and don't quite make it, it's one of those things you sort of look back on and with some regret, but incredible experience and just so grateful for the opportunities it gave me.

ML
Character building, I believe it's called.

DP
It certainly all was. And that's been one of the really surprising things. I remember after I retired saying to my wife, I've spent literally thousands and thousands of hours working on these skills that are now just useless. And I imagine a whole bunch of athletes, although if you play tennis or something, you're probably going to keep playing socially. But Rugby Union, I'm not going to tackle anyone. I certainly don't plan to tackle anyone.

ML
I'm very glad to hear that!

DP
In the future.

ML
But if you go meta, then I think they're not useless skills because it's how you learn those skills. It's how you stay organised, how you focus, how you choose and break down tasks. I think they're very useful skills, not the actual tackling, but how you learn to tackle.

DP
Exactly. And that's been the thing that I've really loved in politics is that you realise actually all these skills are so important. Being able to work in a small team, being able to take feedback on board, it's quite surprising in politics, how many people seem really thin skinned. They don't actually want to engage and take on some hard feedback. Working towards goals, work ethic, all those things are just so important. And in many ways, I think professional sport is a good grounding to step into different areas.

ML
So you're known as somebody very, very concerned with social justice and equity issues. That's your brand as I travel around Australia and I mentioned I might get to get you on the programme, on the show. Were you known for that when you were playing rugby? Or did you have to almost toughen up or show a facade? Or were you able to be that same David Pocock back then?

DP
There were two issues that I spoke up about when I was playing rugby. My view was, wrongly or rightly I was a role model, I had some sort of platform. And I knew what it was like to be that kid that looked up to rugby players and just idolised them. And so I thought a lot about, well what do I actually want to talk about outside of rugby? And one was climate and the environment. I grew up on a farm, love the natural world, it's given me so much, we rely on it for survival. And as an Australian, I looked at our climate policies, how we were treating nature, and it was something that I consistently tried to actually talk about. The other was in the sport of rugby, I think like most contact sports in the world that have traditionally been very male dominated, it's great to see the women's game in so many of these sports coming along in leaps and bounds, but there has been so much homophobia in those sports. And my view was, it shouldn't be on gay players in those teams to create a space where they can actually just be who they are. It's on all of us to try and create that environment.

And so it was, I guess, part of public conversations about homophobia in sport and marriage equality was a big debate here in Australia for a decade before we had this national plebiscite vote where people voted for it. And so I was willing just to talk about it and say, I think this is something that we need to be doing as a country. So I think people would, before I became a politician, know me as an athlete who was willing to speak up about those things.

ML
Am I right, you and your wife didn't get married until there was marriage equality? Did I hear that correctly?

DP
Yeah, we had a ceremony back in 2010. And at the time just thought, well there's some of our friends who are gay, and if they wanted to get married, they couldn't. And so just decided we'll have a little ceremony, the wedding, but we won't sign the official paperwork until marriage equality is legislated in Australia. And so I think it was like 2018, we ended up just having another few mates over and signed some paperwork. It was a small sort of act of solidarity. It just made no sense, I just don't see the difference between people's love.

ML
Something I've never shared publicly before, but my wife and I, we're not married, we have a civil partnership. We didn't want to get married and we waited until there was complete equality between LGBTQ+, who could have, because they were first allowed to have a civil partnership, but not get married. And then they got the right to get married, but then straight cis couples couldn't have a civil partnership. So we said, well when that's all sorted and everybody could do whatever the hell they want, whichever form they want, then we will do a civil partnership, which we did. And we did it during COVID. So that's, there's something very parallel. I just felt wrong, the differentiation. I think it's the same sense that you had.

DP
Yeah. And, you know, our sense was like, this is just a small thing that we can do as a couple saying, we just don't agree with the system that discriminates against people's, you know, people's love.

ML
The difference is that you did that publicly, very publicly enough, presumably quite attracted quite a lot of attention at the time I heard about it. Whereas for me, it was something that just my wife and I just did because of the way it felt to us.

DP
Well, it was interesting because it didn't, I don't think it gained any public attention until the whole marriage equality debate really started to ramp up here. So yeah, interesting how things all of a sudden get into the media and people talking about them.

ML
And then, and I may be fast forwarding, forgive me, you chained yourself to an excavator.

DP
I did, to this massive super digger that was in the early stages of a coal mine in New South Wales, in Australia's food bowl, so one of our most productive agricultural areas in the middle of what's called a box gum woodland. So think sort of grass and woodland. And that type of ecosystem is critically endangered in Australia. We have cleared over 97% of all of that ecosystem in Australia, because it is on such productive land, like agricultural land. And it just seemed like the most insane thing for us to be doing as a country, to be approving a coal mine at a time where experts were saying that we need to start to transition away from coal. This was back in 2014, and in the middle of a critically endangered woodland, right next to farmers.

And having grown up on a farm, I've got a lot of sympathy for farmers and just how damn hard it is at the best of times. And it was really only, I had a mate who had been involved in some of the organising, invited me up there and I went up there and I met Rick Laird, who's a fifth generation farmer on that piece of land, that state forest is actually named after one of his forebears. And we're just talking to him about some of the challenges they were facing and what this mine would probably mean for them in terms of the water table and dust and all sorts of things. And eventually we kind of got to the point where we kind of looked at each other and said, well, if you're willing to do this, I'll do this too. And so yeah, we locked on to this sort of second story, it's massive, massive machinery, locked on for a day, spent the whole day up there. Police eventually came and cut people off and off we went to get processed.

ML
And the tackling skills didn't get revived?

DP
No, I mean, it caused a lot of grief in rugby circles with my employer, employers.

ML
You were still playing at the time?

DP
Yeah, I was still playing. So this was the year before 2015.

ML
That's right, 2014. I'm just adding the dates.

DP
2015 Rugby World Cup. And so it was a big thing, but it was something that I really felt strongly enough that I was willing to cop the consequences. And so anyway, they eventually sorted it out. I think I got a written warning for bringing the game into disrepute.

ML
And that policeman goes home that evening and says, you never guess who I arrested today!

DP
Well, I think actually, I think he maybe called his son or something on the super digger and we had a chat. Bizarre experience but yeah, I mean, I just think as a country, we have had our head in the sand for a long time.

ML
And did that mine go ahead in the end?

DP
It did, it went ahead. It stopped the water table, boreholes have run dry for those farmers in the area. During the last big drought, they got fined for stealing a billion litres of water. They also outbid other farmers when it comes to sort of drought water rights that are released. It's had a huge impact.

ML
It's extraordinary. It's the sort of story you expect to hear from and I don't want any Ecuadorians or anybody to kind of start pinging me, but you expect to hear it in countries where land rights are just not particularly strong. So I'm sorry, Ecuadorians, I've singled you out. But there are other countries, Zimbabwe, you expect a story of dispossession of the land and ruining the water table, is that still common here in Australia?

DP
Time and time again, you see big projects like this, coal and gas go ahead, regardless of local opposition from farmers and landholders and regardless of opposition from First Nations people who own the land.

ML
Because the famous one in that respect recently was the blowing up or the destruction of...

DP
Juukan Gorge.

ML
Yes, exactly.

DP
Yeah I mean, this is happening in Australia. Currently, Santos have a proposal to put in sort of very close to this area where I was arrested on the coal mine to put, I think, 650 gas wells into another state forest. And they have no support, no consent from the traditional owners of that land, the Gomeroi people but regardless, they're going through the process of essentially overturning any opposition from First Nations people and going ahead with it.

ML
So that excavator incident, that's what gave people the idea that maybe someone like David Pocock, in fact David Pocock, would be a good senator. Is that right? Is that what put the idea into their heads and therefore, is it the origin story of your political career?

DP
I'm really not sure you'd have to ask people about that. I think to fast forward to today, four years into the job, one of the things I love hearing from people I represent here in the Australian Capital Territory is people sometimes come up to me and say, listen I really don't agree with you on all things, some things I really disagree with you, but I really like the way you're going about doing things. And that's really how I've tried to engage in politics, is to be really open about my decision making. It's not my vote in the Senate. That's the people I represent's vote, and I really want to hear the broad perspective of people to ultimately form a view and then make a decision to vote. And I think people do appreciate that.

ML
The people are voting for you. They voted and I think that you have to go up for re-election every three years because it's the territory. So, I mean, we might do just one, not even the one minute, the 20 second version, I'll try it and you can tell me if it's right. The states get 12 Senators and there are six of them every three years that come up for re-election, but the territories get only two Senators and you all have to go up every three years. So, you're up for re-election much more frequently than any of your Senator colleagues. How did I do?

DP
That's bang on.

ML
Okay. So, you're up for and how many times have you been re-elected now, just the once?

DP
Yeah. So, elected once, re-elected once.

ML
And with an increased majority?

DP
I think we almost doubled the vote.

ML
Right. So, they like you and that's great.

DP
Well, so far.

ML
So far, but were they disaffected from the existing parties, why did they vote for you? I mean, is it just because you were this fantastically famous and successful rugby player and they kind of couldn't help themselves but tick that box because of fame or was it they were disaffected? What's your sense?

DP
So, this was the 2022 election?

ML
Initially, yes. Now they know you and they like you, that's different.

DP
It was a combination of factors where we had a government that was on the nose, people that had enough of them. They weren't serious on climate change.

ML
And that was the coalition. So, that was the...

DP
Scott Morrison's government, we'd just come through the bushfires, the Prime Minister was on holiday in Hawaii while the whole country was burning down. And when asked about it said, I don't hold a hose mate. And that just, I think, really struck a chord with Australia. So, there was that anger. And then the local senator who was part of the Liberal Party was not that well-liked.

ML
Who did you beat, what was his name?

DP
Senator Zed Seselja.

ML
Okay.

DP
Really not well-liked, had essentially argued against the territory having the rights to make our own laws on things like voluntary assisted dying and other areas where the Commonwealth in the past had infringed on the territory's rights because they weren't states and they could. And a lot of people here in Canberra really took exception to that. So, I think it was this whole combination of factors. And had that not been the case, I don't think an independent, regardless of who they were, could have run. I mean, I think the sport was a foot in the door, but that's not enough to get people to vote for you.

ML
Yeah, and we've seen that. I mean, we've also seen other athletes try and go that route and constituents, voters are pretty smart. They'll work out if somebody can do the job or not, generally. But right now, you've got this situation where the coalition, Zed Seselja, was he a Liberal or a National?

DP
A Liberal.

ML
He was a Liberal. So, you've got the coalition between the Libs and the Nats, the Liberals and the Nationals, but they're haemorrhaging support to One Nation. But where I'm going is, do you have voters who are supporting you, or at least who supported you then, who could easily have gone from voting for Zed to voting for a One Nation type candidate? Because are people that volatile, do you think?

DP
I think people are very frustrated, and not just frustrated, but really angry about the system not looking after them. And I hear from people all the time about just how hard it is to make ends meet. I hold quarterly town halls and mobile offices, and so people can actually come and chat to me about their problems. And a few weeks ago, I had a single mum come and say, listen I've got a really good job, I'm a public servant, I get paid a pretty good wage, I've got three boys, I cannot tell you how hard it is. I can't tell you how embarrassing it is as a single mum with a great job to be on every list for food relief, for my kids to have never owned a new piece of clothing, to have just lived on hand-me-downs and op shops. And I think we're seeing that across the country, where the system is not working for people.

And so you look at the two major parties and you say, well, what's the difference? They kind of change place every five to ten years, and there's all these promises, but I don't really feel like I'm better off, I don't feel like the system's working for me. And so, yes, I think if a party comes along who validates their anger, you're right to be angry, you're right to be angry, don't necessarily, in my opinion, have solutions that will fundamentally change things, but validating people's anger, I think absolutely people could vote for them.

ML
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So let's segue from that into energy questions because that single mum with three kids is living in a house or in an apartment and the energy bills are sky high. What are your conversations with that person about energy? How do you make energy cheap? I guess that's probably the question.

DP
Well, I think one thing that people do understand here in Australia at a household level is electrification. We have the rooftop solar success story for the world. We have had successive governments that have ensured that our regulatory system is streamlined, approvals are streamlined, and we've seen huge, huge uptake. I mean, what is it, like 30% or 40% of households?

ML
I don't know the exact number. I actually asked, I used Perplexity, the question, somewhere there's a data centre melting down because I've asked that. But I've asked it and I think it came up with 31% or 32%, something like that. But that may have been slightly out of date, it could be higher by now.

DP
So mid 2025, Australia had 26.8 gigawatts of rooftop solar across 4.2 million homes and small businesses, and they see the benefit of that. We now have huge battery uptake thanks to a government incentive. And so I really think the conversation has to be around household electrification. How do we actually ensure that Australians can benefit from and participate in this new energy system of the future? We essentially have an opportunity to democratise energy. And I think there's the usual vested interests who on the one hand, from fossil fuel companies, and some of the people who do their bidding, they obviously want to slow down this transition because it's going to bite into their bottom line.

And then we actually have some of the big energy retailers and the old way of generating electricity out here and sending it to electrons to where people live. We can disrupt that whole thing. And I think that really has to be the focus. And when you talk to Australians about that, they get it, but they want to know, I'm a renter, how do I benefit? And currently we don't have enough of an answer for them. And if they're a low income household, how do they benefit?

ML
I've just spoken at the National Press Club and I talked about exactly these issues where Australia is absolutely, you won the World Cup when it comes to solar roofs, not just in the numbers, whether it's 31% or whatever, and the number you gave was millions, it's very consistent with that, it's definitely around that. But also the installation costs, which are half or less what it costs to install the same roof in the US, for instance. So that one, brilliant success but then you've got very low penetration of electric vehicles. And you've got very low penetration, I would say, on commercial and industrial, C&I, so box retailers, sports stadiums, warehouses, those sorts of things. You're actually not doing that well. You know, around here, I know it's raining right now, but I drive around looking at things like car parks, no solar awnings over car parks. So, what's the story there, how do you fix that? Because, okay, homes are one thing but in some cases you'll be, well in the community, you need a lot more energy than you can just get from a bunch of home rooftops, even with batteries.

DP
Yeah, we need a lot more supply. And I think that is one of the challenges. With rooftop solar, we've seen since the early 2000s, consistent support from the government to have an installation system, the regulations that actually make it cheaper. And we've seen good incentives from really good feed-in tariffs early on, which got those early adopters going and rewarded them to the point now where everyone gets it. But for the other things, I think we haven't quite cracked that, both the incentives, but also, you know, having some actual mandates on things like government infrastructure on schools. And I think there's huge opportunities there now.

ML
One thing I would say, just looking at experience around the world, is simplicity. One thing you've got is simplicity. That installer can go in and do the job quickly, and the paperwork is minimal, and what you pay is net of the support. Whereas in the US, for instance, I'm in the UK, it's different. But in the US, you have to pay, and then you have to go and file your tax return to get the money back. And of course, a lot of people are just like, oh, lose the will to live. And it seems like the simplicity here is one of the big factors.

DP
And so how do we scale that up to the big infrastructure?

ML
Exactly. Well, first to the midsize, just to the school or the community centre roof or the box retail or whatever, that feels like a big thing. EVs though, electric vehicles, since I'm not allowed an acronym on my own show, electric vehicles, that feels like Australia is just weirdly far behind. Given how much solar you've got, given that people are electrified, just having a plug and plugging in a car, it feels like such an obvious next thing. Why haven't they done it?

DP
Well, until last year, we didn't have fuel efficiency standards. I think we were one of three countries in the world. I think it was us, Russia, and maybe Kazakhstan, who didn't have fuel efficiency standards. There's been huge lobbying and pushback against this. My understanding, and this is obviously way before my time in politics, is when we had a car manufacturing industry, there was a real pushback against any sort of fuel efficiency standards because we weren't producing very fuel efficient vehicles. And since then, we've just seen this concerted effort from big car companies to ensure that we don't. We've essentially been the dumping ground of inefficient vehicles for many, many years now.

Again, to the government's credit, they finally introduced fuel efficiency standards and we've seen a big uptake. I think now in the current energy crisis, this is the opportunity. My understanding, talking to experts, I'd love your view on this, you actually have to set some real targets and potentially end dates for the sale of ICE, of combustion engines.

ML
Controversial, I used to think that because I was an investor in ChargePoint and I had the CEO, Pat (Pasquale) Romano, on Cleaning Up, and we agreed that the way to do this is to announce the end date, focus everybody's mind, the companies invest against an end date, and Bob's your uncle. The problem is it's enormously unpopular. So now I've changed my mind. I think what you should do is threaten an end date, but never actually have one because that gives you the kind of political get out of jail free. But also it focusses the mind, the fact that people need to understand, in the case of digital radio, nobody bought a digital radio until they knew that the analogue was going away. So there's an element of doing that, but it is very unpopular politically.

DP
Well, I mean, I think it's getting to the point where it just makes sense.

ML
So you've also been active on taxation of gas. Is that something you're actively working on?

DP
Yes, I've been pushing hard for Australia to actually get a fair return on our gas exports. We're one of the biggest gas exporters in the world and have failed to actually get a return. I think 56% of the gas that's been exported from our country has been royalty free, that makes no sense. This gas belongs to all Australians. Yes, companies can come, they can exploit it, they can export it, but they've got to pay us for it. And up until now, we just haven't seen the political will to make that happen. And I think we now have this growing awareness amongst Australians and a vast majority of Australians who back something like a 25% gas export tax, which would get us a fair return for the export of our gas and obviously lower the price of gas here in Australia for the transition. We're currently in this absurd situation as Australians where we pay international prices for our own gas. I talk to manufacturers who are paying more for Australian gas than Japanese companies are paying for Australian gas.

ML
I was here in, I think 2013 or 2014 when those deals, those gas export deals were being, I think, negotiated. And there was a discussion about reservation, about saying there should be some amount that's sold into Australia. And of course, the challenge, because it's in the West and you need it in the East and so on. But obviously, it went ahead with as you say, royalty free and so on. But how does taxing it make it cheaper for Australians? It makes it more expensive for the Japanese or whoever's buying it but how does it make it cheaper for Australians?

DP
Well, it doesn't actually make it more expensive for the Japanese because this is an internationally traded commodity. And we recently had a Senate Enquiry into this and a couple of the biggest exporters said to us, listen, we'll have to take the hit here. We'll have to still sell gas at the same price as South Korea and Japan, we'll have to pay you the 25%, just so you know. And a bunch of our Senators were saying, yeah, that's exactly the point.

ML
And your point is what? Yes.

DP
You should be paying us for this gas.

ML
But how does it lower it for Australians? Because, OK so that happens and the shareholders of those companies complain and maybe they do a little bit, you know, they invest a little less in maintaining or expanding or whatever they would otherwise do because the margins are thinner, etc. So how does it help Australians?

DP
Well, because it's an export tax, it's essentially 25% less. It's cheaper to sell to Australians.

ML
So those companies, those exporters would prefer to sell because they won't pay the tax if they sell into Australia. I suppose you could do that through a reservation. I'm not going to push back, I'm trying to understand.

DP
Yes. I mean, that's the design. This comes from the Australian Council of Trade Unions, who represent all these workers who are in these industries, including working for these big gas companies. And there's real recognition that we have been absolutely fleeced for our gas. This is a finite resource and it's also a resource that is in declining demand.

ML
Wouldn't those companies also say though, I don't want to argue for them, wouldn't they also say, but if you look at what we're doing in Western Australia or wherever the gas is, we're employing a lot of people and they then pay payroll taxes and they buy hamburgers and then somebody pays the tax, sales tax, etc. So actually, some of that Japanese or whatever it is, money flows through and does end up in the exchequer. And if they walk away from the sector because it's not economic anymore, then doesn't that all disappear?

DP
You could be an advisor to the gas industry.

ML
Is that what they say?

DP
Exactly what they say. They say, listen, we pay all these taxes. We pay corporate tax when we make a profit and some of them don't. There's great examples of a company like Santos, I think they sold about $40 billion worth of gas and didn't pay any corporate tax over a decade. But then they say, we pay payroll tax. We pay all these sorts of things. That's all well and good, but it's the actual gas that they need to pay for as well. A builder doesn't say to you, listen, I pay for all these things, but actually I get the bricks free from the taxpayer. That's not how it works. You have to pay for the raw materials and I think that's where Australians are so worked up about this.

ML
One of the things that could be done with the gas would be data centres. That's my attempt to segue into data centres. So what is your line on, you've got this enormous number of people who want to build data centres in Australia, I don't know whether they will build them with wind or solar or gas, I haven't been through the list of the proposals, what is your line on data centres? Are they good for Australia, bad for Australia? Will we see you accelerating them or chaining yourself to them, what's going to happen?

DP
Well I mean, any discussion of social licence and where they go aside, I think the big question is around additionality. Will they actually be building additional energy into the grid that they then use? And I think that is the question that needs to be answered because you just have to look at what's happened in the States where data centres come online, they're sucking up energy, whether that's from the grid, electrons or burning gas, and they make it more expensive for everyone else. We cannot go down that path as Australians.

We're hearing certain things from the government. I remain very sceptical. There is what they call these “statement of expectations”, which essentially seems to be expectations on a website, but that doesn't cut it. When you're dealing with these big tech companies, you can't just expect something, you actually have to legislate and say, this is how you need to do things.

ML
And when you say additionality, I assume you mean renewable additionality, or do you just mean electricity? In other words, is the driver the electricity? They can bring big gas peaking plants and whatever, but what they can't have is electricity? Or does it have to be wind and solar? And if it has to be wind and solar, does it have to be from day one?

DP
I think it should be renewables.

ML
Okay.

DP
When you look at where we're at with climate change, it seems nuts to be locking in data centres to something like gas.

ML
But from day one, because of course, it takes time, then you've got a whole other set of negotiations. We have in Europe a conversation, sorry the EU, when I say we, we're not in the EU, I mean I'm in the UK. But particularly in the EU, there's a big conversation saying, if you want to do a data centre, you have to use the discarded heat for district heating. It's like, well, then we just won't do data centres will be the response. They just simply won't have any because it's too complicated.

DP
Well, I don't see how you can not have it from day one and also at the same time, say we're not going to affect energy prices for Australians.

ML
Well, so there is, and I just did an episode with the CEO of Wärtsilä, a big gas engine company, and what he is saying is what's happening in the US and elsewhere is, day one you start with gas engines, so you get going quickly. And by the way, they're gas engines that you probably are going to need, because at some point, there'll be lots and lots of wind and so there are lots and lots of batteries, but you'll still have a problem with maybe it's one week a year or a small number of days, and then you really like to have some gas engines. So first go ahead, build the engines, start the data centre, win the AI race, but with an agreement that, how can I put it, maybe share your scepticism about how binding it could be, that you would then when you get a grid connection and when you've built the wind and solar and the batteries, that you could then use those gas engines to support not just the data centre, but also the grid. So that's the thesis, but I guess you're looking at me very quizzically.

DP
Well, I'm just so sceptical of these AI companies. I mean, what is this race? It's to replace human labour, ultimately. And so what does that do for a country like Australia? We are so reliant on personal income tax, in terms of our overall budget and tax take. So what we're racing to then replace human labour, it's not like data centres are huge employers. And so what is the end game here? Why are we rushing to do this and potentially compromising our climate goals, creating a whole bunch of emissions? Obviously, the easiest emissions to avoid are the ones you haven't created yet. And so we're about to potentially create all these additional emissions, for what?

ML
So this got very philosophical very, very quickly there. But because I mean, a counter argument would be to say, well you know, it's also about making humans more productive and freeing them up from routine, in the same way that we now have lots of machines to help us with routine physical labour, we've now got these machines that can help us with routine intellectual labour or my accountant would object to being called someone who does routine intellectual labour, but you know, I certainly find I'm much more productive because of AI, you've just checked instantly on a statistic using AI, you're more productive with AI. So the counter argument is that AI is a fantastic productivity tool. Are you against AI? Do you want to slow it down?

DP
I'm all for AI that's actually helping humans do their jobs. But I just fail to see when you look at the amount of investment that is going into the development of these models, and then into data centres. The only payback seems to be replacing human labour en masse, huge, huge replacement of human labour. And all of these, you mentioned accountants, all of these accounting firms are going to be in this scenario where the first movers obviously benefit the most. And once someone starts to replace all of their accountants or 90% of their accountants with an AI model, everyone else has to do that to continue to compete. And then you very quickly get to this moment of collapse where it's like, hang on, well there's all the accountants are just unemployed. And then what? And if you extrapolate that across a whole bunch of industries, what then? And so it's like, what is the point here?

ML
You won't get any answers from me, but because it is unknowable at this point, I think it's very concerning. The sheer number of whether it's programmers and accountants and already, you know, anybody working in a call centre, if they're not gone, then they don't have a long career horizon. The question is, will we, as we always have in the past, will the economy reskill and will there be things to do? But there will be more in-person services, and you know, I don't want to say that your accountants will become masseurs or open Airbnbs, but there will be an enormous number of new opportunities in that model. I don't know what the answer is, I don't know what I think on this because I'm very concerned.

DP
And I guess that's why I was asking.

ML
I also think you can't stop it in a sense. I don't think that because if Australia says, well, we're not going to do data centres, well, guess what? There'll be another country that does and the data centre could be just even bigger in the US and then the results just come down a fibre and it does exactly the same to the Australian economy, but now without the data centre.

DP
Yeah, sure. I get what you're saying there, but I think we do need to be asking the bigger question, like what is this all for? And we've got all these sort of AI boosters out there telling us, well, this is great for productivity, and not that long ago, I went to this tax round table that was being hosted and it was basically the who's who of economists in Australia, and they had their discussion and there was a time for questions. And I said, well, one of the things that no one's talked about is AI and what happens if it starts to replace human labour and all of a sudden we have, I don't know, 10-20% unemployment. What does that mean for the budget, for our tax take? And essentially got the sort of pat on the head, don't worry, there'll be other jobs that are created. But I just haven't heard anyone make the case for what those jobs are. Sure, there will be some where people who are specialists at actually managing AI, yes, absolutely. But not to the extent that we currently have.

ML
So my response wasn't pat on the head!

DP
Not saying you were.

ML
That's the counter argument, but I also said that I'm very concerned. We've now done a bunch of, we've done some history, we've done some policy, we've done some philosophy, we touched on it. But I want to finish on politics, because you strike me, you read as somebody who very much wants to get things done, but you are a lone operator. And I'm not trying to be funny and ask a question about because there's this rumour that you had been in, you'd had some talks about some kind of alliance or whatever, I don't even know the details. So I'm not trying to be funny and ask, trying to do a gotcha, but how do you think, you now have been in this role for four years, and you know how politics works, your feet are under the table, you know how this stuff works, how do you get things done? You as David Pocock, how do you get things done?

DP
The thing I've learned in politics in my four short years as a senator is there's different types of power. So in the last Senate, the government basically never holds the numbers in the Senate to just pass things. But in the last parliament, when the major parties disagreed, the government needed the Greens plus one or two independents, it varied based on what was happening with party defections, etc. And so the government constantly needed my vote. And that's where you're actually able to negotiate with them. You know, I think over the three years had over 220 amendments passed to legislation, you get a good say in what's actually happening. And you get to negotiate other good outcomes, you know, I negotiated something like an active travel fund, which I thought was lacking, and the government now has this and they're putting more money into it in the last budget. So that's one way you can get things done.

In this current Senate, they don't need my vote at all, ever. And so it's a very different situation. And so I've really been talking about things like a gas export tax, where there's just such broad support amongst the community to try and get the major parties who, in my mind, are sort of captured by vested interests. Two big examples that are happening at the moment here in Australia is the pushback from the major parties and the gas companies against a gas export tax, and the pushback from the major parties in the gambling industry against banning all gambling ads. For people overseas, Australia is the biggest loser per capita when it comes to gambling in the world. You know, it's daylight second, we are just world champions at losing money to gambling. We have a parliamentary report that said we should ban all gambling ads because it's normalising gambling for young people. Major parties don't want a bar of it. And so it's really trying to use whatever platform I have to say, hey, we can do better. And as an independent, the most ambitious I can be is to be the best independent I can be, I don't want to be prime minister.

ML
Can I draw an analogy? No, go ahead.

DP
Well, so you kind of alluded to this talk of a party, and some independents have been saying, well we're in this moment of time in politics where there is just such flux and people are looking for alternatives, should there be some sort of party structure, maybe not like the kind of party that everyone looks at and says that's a party, but some sort of structure?

ML
With blazers and whips?

DP
Or this kind of, you know, what do they call it? Sort of discipline, where you have to vote a certain way.

ML
Well, that's the whip's office, and the blazers being...

DP
I'm my own whip, which is a funny thing in the Senate. So yeah, there have been discussions. I know I've been leading them, but I find it very interesting to see, well what should happen in politics now?

ML
So I wanted to come up with an analogy, which is probably a very forced link to just start wrapping up. But in a way, when you say that when they needed your vote, you could get amendments, but now you can use your, essentially the influence because they don't need your vote. You have to find something else. It's a bit like going after the ball in the breakdown, just whatever it takes as an opportunistic hunter and getting things done, whatever it takes. Is that a fair comparison, do you think? Does it feel the same?

DP
In some ways. I mean, I think it's being agile and being able to actually respond to what people want. And that's the thing that actually attracted me to running for the Senate was I had zero interest in being part of a party where you're bound to some party line. And I mean, you look at some of these ministers, it must kill them to say the things they have to say, but that's what the party says they have to say. I had no interest in that. And so as an independent, I'm just accountable to the people here in the ACT, the Australian Capital Territory, and can talk to them, can raise issues and go about my business that way.

ML
And as long as you emerge with the ball, then your constituents are happy and they're going to vote for you again and again and again, right?

DP
I like how you rounded that out.

ML
Very good. David, it's an enormous pleasure speaking with you. Thank you so much for taking time to come in and talk to us today.

DP
Thanks for having me, Michael. Cheers.

ML
So that was David Pocock, former star player for the Australian national rugby team, the Wallabies, and now senator for the Australian Capital Territory. That's the area around Canberra, the federal capital of Australia. As always, we'll put links into the shownotes to resources that we mentioned during our conversation, which will include things like pictures of David chained to an excavator. I'd like to thank Damien from Lonsdale Street Studio because we're using their studio here in Parliament House. And also Oscar Boyd our producer, Jamie Oliver our video editor, Kendall Smith head of operations, Jo Jagger who's helped organise all of this tour of Australia, the Leadership Circle, without whom none of this would be possible, and you, the audience, for spending time with us here today. Do make sure that you subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find at cleaninguppod.substack.com to make sure you don't miss any other episodes of this Deep Dive into the transition in Australia. And also, so you don't miss any of our normal programming, you can find it at cleaninguppod.substack.com.

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL, and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live. If you're enjoying this episode, please hit like, leave a comment, and also recommend it to friends, family, colleagues, and absolutely everyone. To browse our archive of around 250 past episodes and to subscribe to our free newsletter, visit cleaningup.live.