Bags of Sustainability - Ep137: Anya Hindmarch

Michael Liebreich So, Anya, you're welcome to this first episode in Season 10 of Cleaning Up. This is a conversation I've really been looking forward to.

Anya Hindmarch  So nice to be with you, nice to see you, Michael. Thank you for having me.

ML  So, the way we always start is, I ask my guests to describe who they are, in their own words, because I've done a little intro, but I probably got all sorts of things wrong and haven't given it the emphasis that you would give it. So, who are you?

AH  So it slightly depends day to day at the moment... I suppose... Well, first of all my name is Anya Hindmarch. I'm British, even though I don't sound terribly British, and I am a fashion designer, I'm the CEO of a company, of a brand, called Anya Hindmarch. But I suppose in this context, I am a sort of slightly accidental environmentalist in a way. And much of my career, rather by default, has been devoted to projects that have been about using my platform to discuss environmental issues. So that's become a lot of what I do. But in my day to day, I also make and sell rather beautiful, high-end, leather goods, and fashion accessories. And we sell those in many places all over the world, so that's what I do normally. I'm also involved in The Royal Marsden Cancer Charity as a trustee, and a trustee on the Tate, so I've done lots of things in the art world as well.

ML  So, you said you're a designer, you are also something of an icon for your work on sustainability. So, I'll confess, I'm not your kind of traditional target market, perhaps, but I did do some research, and I asked a number of people who actually are your target market, and every single one of them own some of  your products. And I asked one in particular, I said, why did you buy one of Anya Hindmarch's pieces? And she said, instantly, she said sustainability. She said sustainability: that was the sell, for her. So, how much... Does that resonate? Did you sort of hook the business to sustainability, or was that the accident that you're referring to when you call yourself an accidental sort of spokesperson?

AH  It's very much an accident in a way, because I started my business when I was 18, so I started designing then and making and selling products to stores, and then opening stores and opening stores all over the world, so, that's my kind of core business. And it wasn't until 2007 - which sounds quite a long time ago, but actually was quite a long time after I had started my business, I'm 55 now - that we were approached, to, I suppose amplify, the message of a book that had just come out, which was trying to encourage people not to use single use plastic. And that really started a project which led to four projects really - and hopefully we can talk about them individually, but - the first project was called I Am Not a Plastic Bag, that which led on to a project called I Am a Plastic Bag, which then led on to a project called Return to Nature, which then led on to a project called Universal Bag. So, these four projects have sort of scanned, right through, from 2007 to today. So, I very much fell into it. And really, I was sort of passionate about it from the get go... I should caveat this: my father is a plastics engineer, so I've been brought up with plastic all my life. It's quite funny really given that I've spent most of my career trying to stop people using it. But those projects sort of started by accident, but actually had become a real passion project for me. And I think - and I'm no expert, I say that all the time, and I'm far from perfect, but - what I do have, in my own small way, I suppose, is a sort of a voice, which you get in fashion. Fashion is a very powerful communicator. You know, it's very viral. It's amazing that fashion can make you wear your hair in one way one year and, you know, short trousers one minute and long trousers the next, and, and really persuade you to behave differently. And I think that's what excites me about the sort of place I have, if you like, to talk in this world, really with very little experience, certainly when I started, but with a voice to hopefully take people in a very honest, open and perhaps easily understandable way.

ML  And that was why I was so much looking forward to this, other than that it's always a pleasure to chat with you. But, you know, I kind of know how businesses work: I've built successful businesses, I've studied business, the things that I've done well, I have all been business to business. I've tried two business to consumer businesses, and they both failed. So, I don't have that kind of, what the Germans would call the fingerspitzengefühl, you know, the fingertip-feeling for, how do you actually sort of... I don't want to say manipulate, but how do you change people's behaviours. And I want to come back to that, and I think that is pretty much at the heart of what we're going to talk about. But just to get the sort of bio piece, a little bit fleshed out, how many years was it between you, famously, going to Italy, spotting a trend, starting to get some bags made and starting your business, aged, I think, 18, 19, and 2007? I'm not trying to ask you how old you are, I'll steer clear of that. So, give us a kind of rough number. But was this a few decades?

AH Well, I'm 55 now, I started my business when I was 18. So, the business started in 1987, and the first project we did, environmental project we did, was in 2007, so quite a lot of years later. And obviously, when you're 18, there's a few years at your kitchen table, trying to work out what you're doing and finding suppliers and dealing with all the things that business throws at you. So it was quite a long time, and very much my business is a fashion business that has, you know, like all businesses, in my opinion, now has to have at the heart of it a responsible - I'm so bored of the word sustainable, but - a responsible attitude to its supply chains. And I think that, you know, whilst it's very difficult, and I'm sure we'll talk about the elephant in the room - how do you square that circle of commerciality with being responsible? And you know, so it's very hard to be perfect, but I think you need to take people on that journey. People do care, they often don't care enough, but they do care. So, that's the sort of timescale and there's been these four specific projects, which...

AH  Anya, I just did some mental arithmetic there, which was, it's about 15 years that you were in fashion, that you were doing fashion, and you were really not doing these environmental projects. I'm very interested: did you feel that kind of disconnect between...? Presumably you were already concerned about those issues? Or were you just blind to them?

AH  No, I wasn't, I wasn't blind. The very first project was I Am Not a Plastic Bag, and happened because someone approached us who'd written a book, which was called Change The World For a Fiver - the book was five pounds - and in the book, there were 40 actions of how to behave in a more responsible way. And the first action in this book was, wherever possible, refuse plastic bags. And they came to us because I kind of knew the person indirectly, and they said, would you help us amplify the message of this book, particularly around the plastic bags? And I had one of those lightbulb moments, because I had been feeling... While I'd been hearing the word, the environment, global warming, and bits of communication had sort of come into my sphere, and I was thinking, what could I do as an individual? And it was quite hard, I think we all felt a bit hopeless at that point. And so I suddenly realized, actually, I could use my platform of bags, and being a sort of spokesperson for bags - as you say, I'd already had 15 years of sort of working in that sphere, so I had a voice for that. And I felt I could actually sort of mimic what was called the "it-bag" formula in those days -  stupid idea, but - there was a huge issue with very fashionable bags, the right people wearing them, a sort of scarcity of supply. And that becomes quite sort of exciting and viral, and people get quite excited about that. So, I thought if I could produce a bag, that was for five pounds, mimicking the book of Changee The World For a Fiver, work with supermarkets - because I really wanted to go to the coalface where most of this sort of single use plastic was sort of coming from, or certainly distributed, or a lot of - and actually, therefore... You know, we were making handbags that were many hundreds of pounds, so offering one of our bags, designed by us, for five pounds, was quite intoxicating for the customer. And the aim was awareness, it was it was very simple. The aim was just, look again. So, we designed actually a cotton bag, which in fact... I look back on it now, it wasn't even sort of Fairtrade cotton, organic cotton, and you know, all these things you learn as you go. And we launched it actually, very initially, with a few very high fashion stores, so you know, Colette in Paris, and in some really kind of cool stores, limited amount, sold out immediately. And then we launched it with Sainsbury's, who were an incredibly brave partner, actually. We've just partnered with them again, amongst other supermarkets, because that's quite a tricky place for them to sit; they're offering something as an alternative, but they were still offering the single use plastic. And they launched it in their stores. I mean, just to give you some sense of the madness, 80,000 people queued on launch day, across the country, to buy one of the bags. It became an absolute crazy sort of mad sensation. But what it did was was gain a huge amount of traction and coverage and press and it was the front page of many newspapers. We then took it around the world and it just got more and more and more crazy. So, it did absolutely communicate. I think one of my proudest things was the fact that I saw lots and lots of copies of these bags. And normally, obviously, as a designer, you don't want copies, but they were actually translating it into Mandarin and into Italian and into French, and therefore communicating the message even further.

ML  The other thing that people mentioned when I say, talk, talk. The other thing that people mentioned, when I say that I'm going to be talking to you on Cleaning Up is the sense of humour; the sort of cheekiness - I'm Not a Plastic Bag, and you've done, you've done Be A Bag, separately, and I think that was to do with your cancer work, if I'm not wrong,  but then I Am a Plastic Bag. And then just the iconography, the cheeky face, the eyes, the look, the brand. That use of humour has been pretty sort of central to what you do as well, has it not?

AH  Well, I think the thing is, in the world of environmental work and sustainability, there are so many brilliant and knowledgeable scientists, but they tend to lose the audience of the normal sort of customer and layperson. So, I think that cutting through that with a bit of humour, which makes it a bit more engaging than perhaps just stats and facts, and actually taking people on that journey with the failures, and the sort of open-sourcing... I was very open, for example, when we did that first project, even I didn't know about how polluting and how thirsty the cotton crop is, for example. And actually explaining, sort of saying, oh, I got that wrong, and now I've learned. So, I think just taking people on the journey with humor, and kind of quite bitesize and easy to grasp communication, is actually quite important to changing people's behaviour. So, perhaps we can add to that, through slightly humorous methods. But I think it's also what what we do, we don't take life too seriously in what we do.

ML  And there's not that many people in the kind of net-zero, climate change, Just Stop Oil, Extinction Rebellion, or at the EU, developing policy or working on the Inflation Reduction Act in the US.... they're not getting their message across by wisecracking, that's for sure!

AH  Well, I think it's interesting isn't it, because I think it can be... I think you need to do all things. It's so important to this crisis that actually we need to do all things - we need to shock, and we need to probably be a bit annoying. But there are other groups who also need to take people on the journey, [by saying] this could be really fun, or, by the way, this is a much nicer way to do a better thing. So, I think we've always gone in that route - this is a much nicer way to do a better thing. And I'm not dissing other approaches, because probably you need all of them. Because if it's a bit annoying too, occasionally, perhaps that actually does also make people change their behaviour because they want to avoid issues. But our approach has been one of actually, come with us, we'll show you a nicer way to do it, we'll inspire you, this is a beautiful thing, wow about where this, and actually it's a better way of moving your stuff around. So, that's been our approach. And it's not saying it's the right approach, and it shouldn't be the only approach,, but it's been one that's actually, I think, brought people on the journey in a positive way. I think we tend to be - well, I tend to be - quite a positive person. And I think that will be a much more natural way for us to communicate. And so I think it's important in the mix, honestly.

ML  Absolutely, there are different roles and different communication styles that are appropriate for each. I want to come back to some of the kinds of trade-offs and some of the conundrums. But first, take us through, you've got those four projects. The first one, I'm Not a Plastic Bag, and then there are these kind of, almost riots, as people queue and they're desperate to get hold of this. What was the journey, then? Where did you go from there? And we'll come back to the the ideas that you've already put out there of not being perfect first time, and learning, and how you communicate, changing behaviour. But what was the actual journey, what were the steps?

AH  So, after that first project, which was very much a baptism of fire, and not for profit, and just a sort of good thing to do, it made a difference, actually. So, whilst it had this incredible reaction... I mean, 30 people went to hospital in Taiwan to give you a sense of... Obviously, not proud of that, we stopped the project immediately after that. But it just got out of control, it went absolutely insane all around the world. So, it got lots of attention. The message was carried further, as I suggested. It then got some negative attention through the lack of organic cotton. But it was great, and actually, the figures from the British Retail Consortium, I think, were that the plastic bag consumption levels in the UK pre the project was something like 10 billion, and it went down to six in a year. So, it did have a very real impact, which was fantastic, and as a consequence, people started imposing tax on carrier bags and so on. So, that was great, and we went back to our day jobs, and felt we'd done our bit there. We'd obviously been involved in lots of things along the way, but actually it wasn't until 2020, when I looked around, and someone told me the stat that I think there's something like 8 billion tonnes of plastic on the planet right now. And I just thought, you know, this project is so not done. Even though, awareness has happened, and I think our project contributed to that, but actually, we're not done on this. And obviously, the issue moved on to circularity; there's all this plastic on the planet, how can we keep it out of landfill and make it and reuse it? So, really, we really wanted to work back into the project. But actually, you know, rather than I'm Not a Plastic Bag, actually, I Am a Plastic Bag. So, how could we reuse what's around and make something beautiful. So, we sort of delved into that project, spend two years on R&D, actually; very expensive and complicated, because actually, it was early into making PET plastic, to recycle it, to source it, to work out how to use it. Every bolt of fabric, when it first arrived, was a different width and weight, and dealt differently with the way that we man-handled it, which made the production incredibly complicated. So, it was really two years of hell. And even as we launched it, we were worried that actually it was... it was quite fraught with difficulty. One of the things that happened also, we developed a fabric, which was recycled PET, which behaves so much like a beautiful cotton canvas drill, that it actually got dirty, which actually wasn't very... we have to make things that our customers want, else it doesn't work. So, we ended up putting a coating on it, like you might on a cotton canvas, but obviously, we wanted that to be recycled as well. And we managed to find PVB, which is actually the plastic that is between windscreens, that holds the glass together so it doesn't smash, and to repurpose that and save it from landfill and actually use that as a coating. And again, that was very different, because obviously different wind screens and different temperatures. And it was really quite a head-fry, getting the whole thing done. But anyway, we got there, and that actually also made me think quite a lot about leather. And so just to say, also that when we launched that project, we actually - as part protest, and part art installation - closed all of our stores, all of our London stores, and actually filled them - took all the product out and filled the stores to the brim, to the ceiling - with 90,000 used plastic bottles, to connect people to what it looks like, which I think is something like six minutes of landfill. Because I think also, part of the communication piece is people need immediate, bite-sized, attention-grabbing messages. And actually when you see six minutes of landfill - and we literally had lorries, we collected all these bottles ourselves, which is probably why we all got COVID in the process, by the way, we launched this in 2019, but - when you see a store filled, it's so disgusting, and it's so ridiculous. And I always say, someone once said to me, if you had to actually plant, or bury, everything that you take sort of waste in your own garden, you'd actually just stop taking it, you know, you'd stop it at source. And so, actually seeing it there, and actually being connected to it. It's one of the things I care passionately about actually, which is that we need to get children to visit landfill sites, and we need to get children to visit recycling centres, just to make them realize, when you throw something away, there is no away, the thing we all know. But anyway, that project - which was again, incredibly powerful from a communication point of view, we toured it around the world, we've done lots of projects, and we filled up stores in Japan and in Hong Kong with bottles, we really made made a point - also made me think about leather because we actually had thought about trimming the bag in a recycled leather, to tie-in with the fact that the whole project was about recycling. And when we dug into leather... Recycled leather is basically the bits of old leather, mashed down, and then remixed in a sort of soup of plastic. So, actually recycled leather is not the answer. We then looked of course at vegan leather, which is just plastic, it's just what people used to refer to as pleather, in those days. And actually, we started looking into leather, because leather has such a bad name, that I started looking into it again and realizing that leather actually is the most amazing material. So, we actually ended up using leather that was really really well-sourced. But the point of explaining this, is it actually led me to the next project, which was called Return to Nature. Because I then thought, actually, in nature there is no waste; in nature, there's no need for landfill, you don't see a dead dog in landfill. Like an apple, it falls from the tree, it biodegrades, it composts, it adds nutrients to the soil, and actually benefits soil health. So, could we actually make... I sort of set myself the question, could I make a bag that would behave like nature, so that actually at the end of life, if you actively composted, that it would actually break down and benefit soil health, leaving nothing nasty and actually nourishing the soil to support further growth? So, we set out on this project, which was another two years of R&D - and by the way, very expensive R&D - and actually worked with a number of people and a huge amount of trials to look at how you source responsible leather - and there's a whole book in that subject. You know, and that means it has to come because actually cattle are very good for soil, as long as it's a healthy, regenerative farm. How you then turn leather responsibly, how you actually finish leather responsibly. So, we worked with a number of amazing people that I sort of discovered in quite an iterative process, really, through the project. So, people who can source skins that have the best animal welfare, we worked with an incredible company called Scan-Hide. Working with amazing experts in tanning, Hoffmans, and finishing; finding a way to tan the leather using no heavy metals, no chrome, no no nasty stuff, basically, so that it left nothing in the soil when it broke down. So, we actually worked with zeolite, which is actually a form of clay, to naturally tan the skins. And then finishing the leather... It's so interesting: when you dig into leather finishing, pretty much all leather these days is coated in plastic, a thin film of PVC. So, the reason you don't have to polish your shoes anymore, as we used to when we were children, is because actually they have this sort of bulletproof coating of plastic on the outside. And the reason your trainers stay white and don't get dark with rain is because they're basically leather with a lot of plastic coating on them. So, it's quite horrifying if you think about it. So, we set out to try and find a different way to protect the leather, because if you don't protect the leather, you need to find a way to have a barrier because otherwise it gets very wet and breaks down immediately. So, we found this amazing company called Evolved by Nature, who have this product which is activated silk. So, essentially, it's liquid silk. Because actually silk is one of the best natural polymers, actually, it's very interesting. I mean, nature has it all; nature has things that do this, and it's all part of a circular economy, essentially. So, it naturally breaks down. So, we worked with them to find a way to have the finishing of the leather, the protection, the final barrier coating, made out of liquid silk. And in fact, we needed a tiny top up of wax. In the end, we actually got to the stage where we were just about to launch this beautiful product, it passed all the tests, it did biodegrade, it did compost, and I went out in severe rain, just testing the product... The product ended up with a bit of chickenpox, because the water was getting through the silk. So, we ended up finding this amazing family in the UK, who have terrible allergies, so they had to remake all the natural products used in a house without any nasties in it. And they had this one wax that we use as the final belt and braces coating on the top of the the liquid silk to actually stop the rain getting in. So, it was such an amazing journey, and we worked obviously all the way through, testing this and externally auditing it, to make sure that we knew it would actually biodegrade and compost, and so it was independently tested. But we had a lovely moment at the very end where we had the compost, that had the leather in it, and we grew a control set of plants, and another set of plants to test alongside, and the control set without our compost delivered plants that grew 20% shorter. So, our little compost delivered our little plants, which were 20% stronger with our leather composted into it. So, it was an amazing moment, to show really that you can produce beautiful fashion products, that a very sophisticated customer would love, that are manageable to make, and actually that could never end up in landfill. So that was a slightly academic project, but I really wanted to prove that. We still sell that product very well today, and it was an amazing, very expensive, but great R&D journey, which I think sparks I hope a lot of conversations in the way that anyone is doing product development and new product development in fashion.

ML  So, at a garden centre near you, you'll now be able to buy one of your handbags as the most expensive fertilizer in the world because Nevermind the hand bagging, it actually delivers 20% more plant growth.

AH  I think we do have a business and composting thing. I think that's the way for compost by the world's most fascinating subject. But anyway, we won't get into that now. But it's very, very interesting. So people got scared thinking that the buyers might sort of actually break down and a composite and sort of break down on their shoulder. But you know, you have to actively put it with composite, but it's a really interesting project. And, and I think, you know, smart sorts of conversations.

ML  What I find fascinating about those stories, is that you have actually, you've focused on the research, because that's the bit that you see, and it's the bit that you have to pay for, but you're also developing a supply chain. Because there's all these companies out there, that are doing bits that individually don't add up to a lot, but actually, they are... It's an interesting question about the circular economy. I think a lot of people think that the circular economy happens within one company. So, you've got recycling, which everybody knows is a sort of chain - it's a relay race, a baton race. But circularity, I think a lot of people think it's about one company that has to be circular, but it's not. It is actually still a baton race, it's still a supply chain, and there's still all sorts of elements to it.

AH  And that's what was so exciting about this project, actually. And actually, in preparation for this call, I listened back, I had interviewed all the people involved, all those individual partners, all of whom we discovered by speaking and researching and so on, and some failed and some didn't. And we put them all together on a call, and actually, I did a sort of interview with all of them, because it was such a really exciting moment, when we finally got that little plant growth. You know, that was the final exam result, if you like, of all the work. And they're all really interesting people, and I think it's joining those dots, and having projects where you can pull together all those experts and pull it together for a result is really exciting. I think the most important thing, then, is to share that very openly. And that's the one thing I'm passionate about, because normally, in business, you spend all this time researching and finding your trusted supply chain, and you guard it with your life. And I think one of the big shifts actually in business now is transparency. And it's very hard because it hurts a bit, when you put a lot of money and effort and resource into it. But I feel that's the one thing that we really need to do. And I've tried to really just push through that, and hence if you look on our website, you'll see it's very open on who did what, and how we do it, and everyone's part of the process. So, I think that transparency piece is the sort of more modern way of doing business, and that is a sort of definite shift.

ML  And I definitely see how that is part of the whole net-zero transition. Or not just net-zero, but environmental responsibility, because now there will be, no doubt, conferences amongst those good suppliers, the suppliers that get it, they will sell a bit better, they will meet each other, there will be conferences, there will be exhibitions, there'll be shows, there'll be sections in the fabric... annual Messe, in Germany or Italy, wherever. And then you're going to have to innovate more to stay ahead of that. And that's really how the kind of tipping points happen, isn't it?

AH  It is. It's hard, because you know, we put, I think two and a half years for each of those projects I've spoken about, in R&D. Every time we tested another thickness of that liquidated silk, versus the wax, how did it affect the leather, what did the rain do, actually, is the tannage a little different, is there more zeolite, actually is the thickness of the natural material, the skin, different anyway? Every time we did that, and then every time that had to go to the external auditors, to check is it actually compostable, is it actually biodegrading, is it meeting the requirements? It was another 3000 pounds. I cannot tell you how much money we kept plying into this these projects. So, it's quite hard to then kind of go guys, this is what we did, and then people can jump straight to the chase, and produce products that have the same... use your R&D. But I think it's important, I really do; it's the one thing that I've sort of - even though it's commercially a little bit, hurts a little bit - I think it's key. And that's why I think also if you're very open and honest about what you've done, and share the journey with people, people also, they have a bit of loyalty and respect for for your brand, because you're going out on a limb, you're putting your money where your mouth is, and you're taking them on a very honest journey. I think that's well-received by your customers. So that, I think, is the shift actually, especially with the next generation. They repay you, if you like, for the pain. And I think that's where they're very loyal to a lot of these brands. I think Patagonia is a great example of that, where they're very front and centre on what they do, and share that journey, and people are very loyal as a result. So, whilst it feels a bit sort of, it feels a bit counterintuitive, I think that actually it's the right thing to do, and actually, interestingly, the customer does actually repay that loyalty. They're very loyal, and repay you back. So, it's interesting.

ML  And very clearly it has worked for you, because as I say, when I asked why buy a Hindmarch bag, then the answer was sustainability. So, people can copy the sustainability, but they can't copy, necessarily... I mean, the brand is much harder to catch up with. So, that's talking about influencing the supply chain.

AH  Yeah, but as it's gonna interrupt your other really apologies. But just to that point, it's interesting, because I talk a lot about brands, obviously, because it's what I do. But I always think people talk about brand, as  all these sort of mantras and taglines and mission statements, but actually, brand is behaviour, isn't it ultimately? And I always think that actually, that's all that matters. That's what people experience, and that's a patchwork of 1000 examples of touchpoints with a company and a brand, and their values actually are more important than anything. So, I do think that's a very overused word, brand, but it's actually behaviour that counts.

ML  And actually, I was going to switch to behaviour at exactly that point. Because I was going to acknowledge that you have influenced the supply chain, and you have influenced your competitors. Because if they copy you, then that is influence. The behaviour of the consumer, though, that you brought up... I guess I'm starting to sort of ask questions, around ok, this all sounds marvellous, but what percentage of consumers, and what percentage of their behaviour, are you really accessing? Because what you've done is tremendous. But then the question is, to what extent does it really kind of change the world or have a large scale impact?

AH  Not yet, I think it's fair to say. But I think that what happens is that, if I can make my customer interested, or make customers interested, in buying the right thing, then they demand that of the brand they're buying from. I think it also goes further up the supply chain, because if people... I mean, Selfridges did a brilliant job where they just banned any exotics very early on, and had been very strict about what they buy. And as a consequence, every supplier to Selfridges is suddenly rushing around trying to find an alternative. So, they're going to all their supply chains and kind of going, can you produce something that doesn't have X, Y, and Z in it? So, actually, you can make a difference all the way up the supply chain. I think I mean, you know... The reality is, also, we need to keep businesses healthy, and to be selling things because actually, we all know that doing the right thing slips down anyone's agenda if people are struggling, and cost of living, and so on. So, there's all of those those pushes and pulls. But I do believe that even if it doesn't have an immediate huge effect it, it is viral, and we have to do it anyway, there's no  no option as for as I'm concerned. But I think all the projects we do make a difference. They might just communicate, they might change people's behaviour to reusessome plastic bags, they might make people think; it might spark a big brand like Nike to go well, actually, could we make a product that can never end up in landfill? I mean, that would be a great result. And I hope it actually also makes my customers like our brand and buy our product more. And I mean, it's actually led to the fourth project that that I've sort of worked on more recently, in which I wanted to go back to the supermarkets.  Because, you know, I think ultimately, that's probably where I can have the most effect. And I think that sort of magic thing of someone who normally sells something at a very expensive price point and making it very accessible, widely, there's a magic to that, which can have quite an impactful benefit. So, we launched this thing called Universal Bag, where we wanted to work with all the supermarkets, which is quite an ambitious project. And I do believe in that eco not ego thing. Therefore, we've worked with Sainsbury's Waitrose, we've launched Co-Op, we've just launched Tesco, and I'm trying to remember which have launched and which haven't yet launched, so I don't put my foot in it. But we're working across not only the UK, but also across the world; we just launche in Hong Kong, just launched in Japan, we're just talking to every country across huge supermarket players, to launch a bag that is fully made from recycled, 100% recycled materials, that is also guaranteed for 10 years. I suppose the way to explain it is that bags for life are not for life. And actually it's not working, and it's ending up... Apparently, I think people take a bag for life every two weeks. So, clearly it's broken, and you see them sitting in hedgerows, and it's a disaster. And as a result people are making heavier, thicker plastic to last, which is not been used for a long enough period. So, we wanted to try and tackle that problem. And the result is a bag, therefore, that lasts 10 years, is fully recycled, has a very clever recyclable sort of element, mechanism to it, which is there's a pocket inside. And at the end of life hopefully after 10 years or more, you would fold it back into the pocket and it has a name and address, free post address, and you put it in any post box and it comes back locally, to be recycled locally. But more than anything, as well, it actually is inspiring people, because it's a nice bag, which many of the bags for life are not. It's inspiring people to want to use something for a longer period of time. So, whether they're using it for the picnic at school or their kids' sports stuff, or whether they're using it, as I was, to lug stuff from the car to the house, or food, or whatever it is, it inspires this reuse attitude. So, we've really launched this for all the supermarkets, and again, it's been a massive success. This is meant to be a permanent project, and it's having quite significant reach actually, and engagement. So, again, I think it's doing lots of different things, but taking it very much to the masses.

ML And that resonates, because I started, I tried to use bags for life, and I got to the point where I realized that they weigh 20 times as much, and I only use them five times, and then something you know.... And so it's clearly not the solution. So, that's a great project. But I want to come back to this business about the extent to which you can change consumer behaviour. And the bag, your bag that's got the liquid silk, requires more care than the equivalent, sprayed-with-plastic leather bag. And are you finding people happily doing that, or do some some people say, well, I don't want to be polishing my bag; I didn't enjoy polishing my shoes, when I was a kid, why would I enjoy polishing a bag? And you know, can you really take not just a few people who really love the idea, and love what you're doing, but can you take everybody with you on that sort of journey?

AH I think you can, with the right communication - it becomes a badge of honor. I was talking to someone this morning about ink pens, funnily enough, because we used to all be given an ink pen for our 21st birthday, and I was so excited to get the ink pen of my dreams. And now everyone is using just disposable pens and pencils. I mean, it's shocking if you think about it, and it's as bad as water bottles, really. So we need to make it a beautiful thing that you enjoy refilling your ink pen, you enjoy the beauty, the craftsmanship of an ink pen, and it becomes something that's cool. Because I think this is where fashion has a very big part to play; that if someone you really admire is carrying a beautiful ink pen, and you know, a really nice reusable bottle, you want to be like them. And we've seen how fashion works, we see how it's, literally, someone wears a pair of flares one minute, and everyone's suddenly copying them and doing that. So, it really can work. So, I think it can have a massive benefit in answer to your question, it  can deliver.

ML  But the fashion industry, There's the fashion industry, and there's there's fashion. And the fashion industry just clothing, it's 2.1 gigatonnes of carbon emissions. So, it's about 4% of all the emissions in the world. And not that much of that probably comes from Hindmarch bags, or Louis Vouitton: the vast majority of it is just people who just need clothes. And you can call it fast fashion, you can call it convenience, you can call it people buying clothes for their kids, and their kids then six months later grow out of it, or it falls apart... Is it realistic...? I held up my pen when you were talking about the fountain pen, because I think that pens need to be things of beauty. So, I agree with you. But that's a minority sport, you know; most people are not... they're just not in a position.... Apart from the fact that the most people on this planet live in Asia, and have relatively modest means, and they're not buying products that are of great beauty that will last 10 or 15 years, they're just trying to... I don't wanna say live hand to mouth, hopefully the majority are beyond that... But they're not buying because of their sort of environmental credentials, are they?

AH No, but I think the huge - and disgusting - overconsumption is not actually mostly because someone needs a new t-shirt, unfortunately. I think there's many too many t-shirts on the planet as it is. It's because actually they're driven, because of fashion, and everyone else's behaviour, that they need new, they need to look a different way, they need the latest. So, if you in fashion can influence that, I think you can make a difference. And you know, I'm realistic, as a one woman person, it's not going to happen by me. But I think if you can... And you do see it, these sort of absolute mega, huge celebrities. massive followings, if they post something saying actually I'm gonna wear this dress, I love this dress, I'm gonna wear it for the 40th time, how cool is that? You make that cool - frankly, that's a relief to everyone. I think this overconsumption, this endless need to have new new new is actually, it's disgusting, and it's expensive, and it's exhausting for everyone. So, we need to buy less and buy better, and we need to rent, and we need to buy secondhand. My kids now buy all their clothes secondhand, they barely buy anything new. So, that is absolutely a trend amongst their age group. So, I actually think that we can make a real difference, actually. And I think fashion has a big part to play, because it's actually unsustainable, frankly, for people's pockets, to keep buying new. So, I think you can look at it in a slightly different way.

ML  But you have got influencers that are reusing, and they come under intense scrutiny. Princess Kate... didn't she wear that once before and so on. And that can have quite an impact. But it can also open up you know... Just the use of celebrities at all, can also open up the trend of trying to be more responsible to calls of hypocrisy, because the next thing that she does is jump on an aeroplane, or fly off to wherever.

AH  Absolutely. For sure, for sure. But I think that... the idea of an influencer or, in fact, celebrity, the word brings me out in hives to a certain extent... But it's about who who might influence, and who is responsible to influence. But frankly, even if it's irresponsible, and it makes a difference to a minority, and it's contradictory, five minutes later; if it makes a difference, so what? Let's use them. I really don't care, I'm not proud. I think we need to... I mean, how lovely was it in COVID, when you were sitting on a Zoom call, and not having to buy another dress, because no one saw you wearing below your waist anyway? It actually was quite a relief. I think this overconsumption thing is driving everyone to... it's crazy. And even with my business hat on, and trying to grow my business, and being responsible to shareholders, and so on, as we have to do... And, by the way, employing people who then have money to keep it at the top of their agenda; I really defend economic success, we need to make sure that's really important, because it helps us do good stuff for the environment. Even despite that, I think we can actually make people buy fewer things. If you're gonna buy seven t-shirts in a year, actually buy three, that are well-sourced, good cotton, responsibly made. So, I think you can actually keep the same revenue, but actually just change the way that we do it. So, I think there's ways through all of this. It will take a long time, and you chip away at it, chip away at it. But I really believe there is a solution that could make 20% difference. I mean, 20% difference will be significant, right?

ML  But how do you deal with criticism that you're almost trying to sell your way to degrowth? Or that you're maintaining a system which is fundamentally just unhealthy?

AH  Well, if you're talking from a business point of view, unhealthy from a business point of view. I think what I just said, if you you know, if you're buying certain features, that is that what you're saying,

ML  What I was thinking more was that the whole edifice of fashion and the way we use clothes to signal status, or in crowd nurse, or just the whole thing, you're actually propping up an industry and a cultural phenomenon, which is just fundamentally bad for the planet cannot be cannot be made somehow good for the planet.

AH  But one also has to be pragmatic here, because the fact is, people do need clothes, they will buy more clothes than they need. So how can you encourage them to make to make a difference to where we are now, even if we just start by saying, okay, we can't change everything overnight, and that's unrealistic. And all those reasons you just said about, you know, in-crowd and status and self-expression. I mean, I love fashion for that reason, to me it's part art form and part tribal, it's fascinating. But the fact is, if we can make everyone behave differently - not to damage businesses, as I've said - but to actually just make, even if they make 5%, 15%, 20% difference to the way they consume, that's significant. And it's interesting once you start... I did a big project where we talked about plastic in bathrooms. And said, you know, if you just start with your bathroom, and think about how you take shampoo; every time you take another plastic bottle of shampoo, how about you have one, and you refill it? And there's some really interesting brands now where you can refill. In fact, the milkman here, you can leave out milk bottles, and they will fill it with shampoo or conditioner or laundry liquid or... So, it's actually really cool. So, if we can make that cool, and fashionable, and a good way to behave, we can make quite a big difference. And if we just look at small incremental differences... Once you start, it's a bit like when you go to the gym: you start going to the gym, you actually then start eating better, and it's quite effective. So, I think let's not bite off more than we can chew; let's just try and make some differences and try and make people think differently. It leads to all sorts of good things.

ML  I'm quite a believer in this idea of incrementalism, partly because I spent so much of my career tracking learning curves, tracking the building of those supply chains. And there are these tipping points where things take off. And I guess the question is whether those small things, though, will add up to a sufficient enough change. And you know, you talk about the shampoo bottles and so on; I'm reminded of these hotels that say you know, we're very sustainable, you know, we'll only replace the towels if you put them in the bath, and we don't use little bottles, we use bigger bottles. And then you arrive, and there they are with their gas heaters, heating up the entire patio outside the hotel, with gay abandon. They just clearly have no clue about real, deep sustainability. And, the whole idea of travelling is probably sort of bad for the planet inherently.

AH  I know, but listen, we have to be realistic. Because if we get to the age where we make everyone feel so guilty, they'll just zone out, right? And the fact is, people need to live and need to do what they need to do, let's just try and... And I know there's a massive crisis, don't get me wrong, I'm not belittling that. But we're not going to get people to go from from A to Z in one go. We have to just encourage and inspire, and use our platforms, and do whatever we can, to make as much difference as we can. One of the things I would love to do, that I think could be significant in fashion, is I would love there to be a sort of traffic light system, in the way that there is on food, where you get calories and nutrition, and you get absolute clarity of supply chain and ingredients. I would love in fashion, if you're going to buy a t shirt, that it had a red or a green or an amber light on it, in terms of actually how well is this sourced? And I think that, if we could introduce that into fashion, that would be really helpful. Because in the same way that I said about leather, and so much misconception around leather, because people talk about it as if it's the worst thing ever; and it's really not, and actually in many cases, it's actually the most sensible - I always talk about sense, common sense, it's one of my big sort of northern stars, but - it's actually the most sensible and responsible route. And certainly vegan leather is not. So, I think if there was a way of showing this is good leather, this is actually from a regenerative farm, it's locally-sourced, sensibly and responsibly tanned, versus leather that actually is incurring deforestation, and making the soil like a desert. You need to know the difference, because actually, otherwise, it's just one size fits all, and it's very confusing for the consumer. So, I think that would be helpful. I also believe we need a carbon tax on products, actually, unfortunately, eventually, as well. So, it's going to be all sorts of things we need to do. But if that combination can lead to a change in behaviour, that's imperative in my view.

ML  So, as you're talking about a traffic light system, red, orange, green... I'm a data guy, and I'm thinking about how you would do that. Also, for a carbon tax, you've got to have really robust data. And the problem with this is it's just incredibly complicated. If you have red, amber, green, one person is going to care about, carbon, one person is going to care about recycling, one person is going to care about beetles, one person has just read something about methane emissions, one person is worrying more about labour, and labour conditions and fairness, somebody else is worrying about heavy metals, and it just becomes... The trade-offs and the complexities to boil things down to red, amber, green... I'm not sure it's doable, I'm scared by that...

AH  Yeah. And I also think it's a huge burden for business. So, I sort of raise it as a, could it just simply be that you have to say how much carbon this product has, the carbon impacts, for example? So, I don't know the answer yet. But I do think that, actually, if the customer had some transparency, that was regulated, and that was consistent, it would help people make informed decisions. I think it's very difficult as a consumer, honestly. So, I think we're not very sophisticated in that way. And you data guys will have to work out how we do it, and how we make it doable, and how it doesn't become too burdensome for business, because that's expensive. But I do think that right now with cost of living and everything people are juggling, we do need to keep people employed. I also that's a really important thing to balance, we need businesses to be healthy right now. But I think that if we could crack that in a way... And maybe it's just starting with one aspect, it wouldn't be perfect, and then it gets better and better. I'm sure there were a lot of discussions when they introduced all the labeling that was required on food... People forget, by the way, that fashion comes from farms - that it's grown. It's very interesting; when you say that people, they just kind of look at you in a weird way. But everything that we wear, and carry, comes from a farm, is grown. So, I think it's not wrong that we treat fashion in the same way that we treat food.

ML  Unless it comes from petrochemicals, technically, because a lot of the plastic, synthetic fabrics do. But behind this idea of labeling, there is a thesis that people act on information, and I slightly worry about that. Because, frankly, you've probably got clients who think of Anya Hindmarch, gonna get one of those bags, sustainability, and I'm going to pick it up on my next trip to New York or to Miami, and they're going to fly... And everybody knows, we've told people how many times? The single worst thing you can do is jump on an aeroplane. What do people do? Jump on an aeroplane. So at some point, the information alone... I think that what you're talking about - the brand and its translation into behaviour - is probably more where the signal lies, rather than just my data business, right?

AH  Yeah, but I'm throwing it out there, just because, again, in the same way, I don't know the answers, but if you throw it out to clever people through a podcast, someone might go, actually what we could do, is. And I think it's worth checking these things out; we all need to kind of grab the bits we think we can make a difference with. But I just know, as a customer, that I would like to know, if I'm in Regent Street buying something, I'd like to know how far it's traveled. I know how far I've traveled, hopefully I can be sensible about that. But just some facts. And I think it would help people make informed decisions, I think it's a sort of missing link. So, I'm not saying it's simple, but I think there's something there, that would be really helpful. And, of course, I mean, responsibility and travel, and it's just such a hard one to... I mean, the only response way to behave is pretty much to stay at home and grow your vegetables outside your window and not move anywhere, and that's a bit unrealistic, isn't it? As we discussed once before.

ML  I also think it's not just that that is unrealistic, it is also that it won't actually avert disaster, because it will just slow down the economy. But we're not going to... it's only through the innovations that we'll actually turn the supertanker and end up somewhere else, rather than the same destination, but just a bit slower. So, I think the innovation is all about... I want to come back to one final - I don't know if you'd consider this your fifth sort of major sustainability project, but - you've sort of returned to your roots in Pont Street, and you're creating almost a complete experience, between the different sort of Anya Hindmarch things that you can do, activities, shops, and so on. Is that the sort of next embodiment of the sustainable experience, rather than thinking of it as a product?

AH  Well, so yes, it's a long story. But localization is interesting to me; we've opened what we call the village, which is sort of six stores and a cafe. And we used to have 65 stores around the world, and I very much wanted to actually bring it back to roots. It's a longer story tied into me buying my business back, and so on, so there's several different threads to it. But I think that localization thing is important. And I also do agree that experience over things is, is very... kind of what I want actually. I've got too many things. And obviously, I know I make things and sell things, but I naturally am being drawn towards selling experiences, coupled with things sometimes and sometimes not. And, you know, the very fact that we've got 150 people queuing from nine o'clock in the morning, every day, outside our shop in Pont Street to currently buy ice cream - very unusual ice cream - I suppose is testament to the fact that I think that's actually what people want. I think we all have too much stuff, I think we all feel guilty about it, it's quite suffocating. It's a huge amount of money, and memories are very precious, no one can ever take your memories from you. So, I think there is a movement towards that, and I think that's very exciting.

ML  So, I did do some market research into the ice cream flavours as well, and I believe, I understand one of them is ketchup flavour, which played to a somewhat... Well, the the grown-ups thought it was awful, and the kids thought it was great fun!

AH  And interestingly, you'll find that when you taste it, the grown-ups think it's rather delicious, and the kids find it not quite sweet enough. It's been working with this amazing Devon, small-batch ice cream maker, we've come up with these flavours, which are very unusual. So, for example, soy sauce, which is actually a toasted sesame, quite umami, delicious, quite sophisticated flavor. There's Branston pickle, which is, as you imagine, got lots of sort of fruits, and there's digestive biscuit, lemon curd, there's Ribena, there's all sorts of amazing flavours. But it's a fun experience, because it's just unlikely. And I think your point about experience over things is another way to solve this problem. It's going to be lots and lots of things coming together. But also I'm with you; I think there's going to be some massive R&D into some incredible technology discovery that is really going to help us here, because I'm kind of worried that we're running out of time frankly. So, everything we need to do we should, but we need the economy to be sound so we can afford the big R&D.

ML  Just on your Pont Street, on the village, do you also focus on the material, the building materials? Because you're stripping out, and you're renovating stores, you've been doing that for your whole career, since your first store that you opened in Pont Street... Do you now look at the circularity of absolutely everything in the store? The glass, when they lay the floor slab, the furnishings, everything? Or is that kind of the next frontier?

AH  I think this is by the way is so interesting, because when we had 65 stores, we had a design bible, and you'd go into a store, and you'd strip it all out, and all that lovely... the previous incumbent all went, and you put in your... and you were sourcing stuff, and it's just so disgusting. And actually, that's why I wanted less stores, I wanted to bring it right down. And actually what we're working with is what's there. So, you know, those are beautiful, old, very old shops. And yes, there's an element of new, but we try and source it locally. But actually, you need to put in shop fits that work, that you can change and alter. And what we were doing prior to the village also is we were doing these very big shows during fashion week, where we would put on these massive sets proper, huge, theatre-level sets, for what is essentially nine minutes of show. Yes, admittedly, the kind of content would distribute around the world. But that felt so wasteful, even if we recycle the materials afterwards, it just felt wasteful in every respect. So, what's lovely about the village for us, is it replaces not only the infrastructure of stores around the world - because actually, we now get people really engaging locally, and then taking a sort of digital experience out, but - we also, it replaces those, in my view, quite wasteful, shows. And so many fashion shows that tour the world, and it just feels very inappropriate, really. So, it's rather nice that we get all this creativity locally, and then we can we can distribute that digitally.

ML  So, Anya I wanted to be mean, and try to come out of this conversation saying, well, you know, it's the fashion industry,  it's only got this much influence and it's only for rich people, and it doesn't do... And of course, you've completely disarmed my every angle of attack, and proven that, in fact, what you're doing is far, far more influential than anything that I could possibly do. So, I'm humbled.

AH  Well, I'm humbled by your knowledge. And the truth is, we all learn from each other. And I think it's really important that... I mean, my industry is a silly industry in many respects, but actually it employs a lot of people, it communicates widely, it has massive influence. So, it's just trying to use the bits of it that we can, together with people like you, and all your amazing experience and knowledge, and all the people I work with, the scientists and all the R&D, to kind of get it together. Ultimately, we've got to club together on this, this is not about individuals, it's about collective actions. And I still remain positive, just, because it's a scary situation right now. But I still remain positive that we can make miracles, if we all pull together.

ML  Well, hopefully this podcast and this YouTube video will get your message to a slightly different audience. A lot of policymakers, a lot of investors listen to this. A lot of the civic society leaders, in sustainability and climate change, have probably already interacted with you, and your brand and your thinking. But hopefully, there'll be some new audiences that I've helped you to get to today. And I just want to thank you for joining us, it's been absolutely tremendous.

AH Thank you, I lost you a bit at the end. But yes, I just think the more we share all these problems and these thoughts, rightly or wrongly, openly. Hopefully, better, we'll do.

ML  Thank you very much for your time today. Great pleasure chatting with you.